Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?


jerry_popiel
 

I am about to order some Litz wire from the USA. Re Steve's recent Litz wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of it on his FSL Loops, does the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide much better sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June 11 writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz Wire is better would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have 122 Turns & 1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry


Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

Hi Jerry!

 

I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38 turn primary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365 pfd variable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the difference in S units as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs S+30 for most stations. There were many stations barely audible with the 100/44 coil that could be really well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I don’t know if this would translate into comparable results with a FSL antenna set up but it sure makes a difference with monster ferrite bar antennas that only have one ferrite rod, albeit one that is 19” long x 1” wide…

 

From: ultralightdx@... [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of jerry_popiel
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

 

I am about to order some Litz wire from the USA. Re Steve's recent Litz wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of it on his FSL Loops, does the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide much better sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June 11 writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz Wire is better would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have 122 Turns & 1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry


Paul V Birke PEng <nonlinear@...>
 

Dear Raphael

thank you for this most important piece of information

best wishes
Paul    VE3PVB


From: "Pollock,Raphael E"
To: "ultralightdx@..."
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 6:39:45 PM
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Hi Jerry!

 

I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38 turn primary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365 pfd variable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the difference in S units as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs S+30 for most stations. There were many stations barely audible with the 100/44 coil that could be really well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I don’t know if this would translate into comparable results with a FSL antenna set up but it sure makes a difference with monster ferrite bar antennas that only have one ferrite rod, albeit one that is 19” long x 1” wide…



Gary DeBock
 

Hello Jerry and All,

Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
mounts.

73, Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

  
I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry


Paul V Birke PEng <nonlinear@...>
 

thanks Gary

just changed my order with Ming from 330/46 to 660/46    100'

best and thanks again for this critical information

I am the fellow with the pictures of the yellow pails glued together with the 100 * 20 * 3 mm   u=400 former Soviet block bars on same = this is going to be built Polydoroff Style


best Paul
VE3PVB



From: "D1028Gary@..."
To: ultralightdx@...
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 9:50:20 PM
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Hello Jerry and All,

Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
mounts.

73, Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

  
I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry


Gary DeBock
 

Thanks Paul,

I'm sure you will be very satisfied with the 660/46 Litz wire from
Ming. He is a very honest seller, and his material is top-rate.

Thanks for sharing the details of your experimentation, and good luck
with your FSL project.

73, Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul V Birke PEng <nonlinear@...>
To: ultralightdx <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
thanks Gary

just changed my order with Ming from 330/46 to 660/46    100'

best and thanks again for this critical information

I am the fellow with the pictures of the yellow pails glued together
with the 100 * 20 * 3 mm   u=400 former Soviet block bars on same =
this is going to be built Polydoroff Style


best Paul
VE3PVB



From: "D1028Gary@..." <D1028Gary@...>
To: ultralightdx@...
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 9:50:20 PM
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Hello Jerry and All,

Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
mounts.

73, Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

  
I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry


Gerald Wolczanski <jerrywolczanski@...>
 

Wow, the difference Raphael found using two types of Litz wire wound on
the same Stormwise Ferrite bar is stunning, even accounting for the
vagaries of the Palstar R30A S-Meter (I own one). Can anyone elaborate
on exactly why this performance difference is so large?
Tanks
Jerry W
KI4IO
Warrenton, VA

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 21:50 -0400, D1028Gary@... wrote:
Hello Jerry and All,

Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
mounts.

73, Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?


Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?


I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
all change?

Any comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry











------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

Probably due to the skin conductive effect
 


From: ultralightdx@... [ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of Gerald Wolczanski [jerrywolczanski@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:09 AM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Wow, the difference Raphael found using two types of Litz wire wound on
the same Stormwise Ferrite bar is stunning, even accounting for the
vagaries of the Palstar R30A S-Meter (I own one). Can anyone elaborate
on exactly why this performance difference is so large?
Tanks
Jerry W
KI4IO
Warrenton, VA

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 21:50 -0400, D1028Gary@... wrote:
> Hello Jerry and All,
>
> Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
> for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
> made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
> have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
> used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
> too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
> of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
> such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
> long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
> 7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
> bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
> mounts.
>
> 73, Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
> To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
> Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
> turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
> pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
> difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
> S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
> 100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
> don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
> antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
> antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
> 1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
> [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
> To: ultralightdx@...
> Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
> wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
> the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
> sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
> 11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
> Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
> 122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
> all change?
>
> Any comments would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

One other major and important consideration: there is a remarkable improvement in S unitage and audible gain if a secondary pick-up coil, when used for direct antenna coupling, is also made of 660/46 Litz and wrapped over the center of the primary coil, which is also centered on the ferrite rod. Eccentric placement of the secondary coil markedly decreases pick up...
 


From: ultralightdx@... [ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of Gerald Wolczanski [jerrywolczanski@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:09 AM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Wow, the difference Raphael found using two types of Litz wire wound on
the same Stormwise Ferrite bar is stunning, even accounting for the
vagaries of the Palstar R30A S-Meter (I own one). Can anyone elaborate
on exactly why this performance difference is so large?
Tanks
Jerry W
KI4IO
Warrenton, VA

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 21:50 -0400, D1028Gary@... wrote:
> Hello Jerry and All,
>
> Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
> for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
> made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
> have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
> used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
> too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
> of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
> such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
> long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
> 7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
> bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
> mounts.
>
> 73, Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
> To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
> Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
> turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
> pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
> difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
> S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
> 100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
> don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
> antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
> antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
> 1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
> [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
> To: ultralightdx@...
> Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
> wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
> the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
> sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
> 11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
> Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
> 122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
> all change?
>
> Any comments would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


Paul V Birke PEng <nonlinear@...>
 

Dear Jerry

this struck me also

right now I have no good explanation for this

more wires with same skin effect do not seem to grab me

more technically somehow the Poynting Vector power flow into the antenna has been increased and likely due to an increase in the magnetic field intensity H

how this exactly is happening is a mystery to me

hoping others can help here cause this is a biggie

I just changed my order last nite from 100' of 330/46  ===>  100' of 660/46 without question when I saw the statement re Steve's excellent research efforts


best wishes
Paul
VE3PVB



From: Gerald Wolczanski
To: ultralightdx@...
Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 9:09:40 AM
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Wow, the difference Raphael found using two types of Litz wire wound on
the same Stormwise Ferrite bar is stunning, even accounting for the
vagaries of the Palstar R30A S-Meter (I own one). Can anyone elaborate
on exactly why this performance difference is so large?
Tanks
Jerry W
KI4IO
Warrenton, VA

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 21:50 -0400, D1028Gary@... wrote:
> Hello Jerry and All,
>
> Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
> for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
> made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
> have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
> used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
> too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
> of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
> such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
> long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
> 7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
> bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
> mounts.
>
> 73, Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
> To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
> Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
> turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
> pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
> difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
> S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
> 100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
> don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
> antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
> antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
> 1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
> [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
> To: ultralightdx@...
> Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
> wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
> the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
> sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
> 11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
> Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
> 122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
> all change?
>
> Any comments would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


Christopher Wendling
 

Paul,

I think you are correct about skin effect amd current resistance, especially at RF frequencies below a couple MHz.  Somewhere, I've seen tables published by the Litz manufatureres giving losses for various frequencies, for various Litz "sizes".
In critical applications (competition XTAL radio sets, for example), the 660/46 Litz is almost always used.  Maybe a Google on "Litz wire performance, losses, comparisons" would yield more specific info. Good luck,
Chris - AI4MI


--- On Thu, 7/21/11, Paul V Birke PEng wrote:

From: Paul V Birke PEng
Subject: Re: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 2:04 PM

 

Dear Jerry

this struck me also

right now I have no good explanation for this

more wires with same skin effect do not seem to grab me

more technically somehow the Poynting Vector power flow into the antenna has been increased and likely due to an increase in the magnetic field intensity H

how this exactly is happening is a mystery to me

hoping others can help here cause this is a biggie

I just changed my order last nite from 100' of 330/46  ===>  100' of 660/46 without question when I saw the statement re Steve's excellent research efforts


best wishes
Paul
VE3PVB



From: Gerald Wolczanski
To: ultralightdx@...
Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 9:09:40 AM
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

Wow, the difference Raphael found using two types of Litz wire wound on
the same Stormwise Ferrite bar is stunning, even accounting for the
vagaries of the Palstar R30A S-Meter (I own one). Can anyone elaborate
on exactly why this performance difference is so large?
Tanks
Jerry W
KI4IO
Warrenton, VA

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 21:50 -0400, D1028Gary@... wrote:
> Hello Jerry and All,
>
> Steve Ratzlaff discovered that 660/46 Litz wire was the best performer
> for FSL's, and I agree with him completely. All of my FSL's have been
> made with 660/46 Litz wire from the eBay seller "Mkmak222," and they
> have all been hot performers. The reason why such large Litz wire isn't
> used on the 7.5" LW loopsticks is because the 660/46 wire diameter is
> too large to get enough turns on the ferrite bar for a coil inductance
> of around 1700 uh. A 7.5" long ferrite bar is too short for winding
> such a 1700 uh coil with 660/46 Litz wire, but an 18" Stormwise bar is
> long enough. Even using the 100/44 Litz wire from "Mkmak222" on the
> 7.5" LW loopsticks practically uses up the entire length of the ferrite
> bar with Litz wire, except for just enough space to attach rubber shock
> mounts.
>
> 73, Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
> To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 3:41 pm
> Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> Hi Jerry! I have used both 100/44 and 660/46 Litz wire to wrap a 38
> turnprimary winding on a 19” 125 mu ferrite bar, terminating in a 365
> pfdvariable capacitor for tuning the MW band. In this context the
> difference in Sunits as measured on my Palstar R30a was typically 7 vs
> S+30 for most stations.There were many stations barely audible with the
> 100/44 coil that could bereally well heard using the 660/46 wrap. I
> don’t know if this wouldtranslate into comparable results with a FSL
> antenna set up but it sure makes adifference with monster ferrite bar
> antennas that only have one ferrite rod,albeit one that is 19” long x
> 1” wide… From:ultralightdx@...
> [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf jerry_popiel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:34 PM
> To: ultralightdx@...
> Subject: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
> BetterToOrder for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
>
>
> I am about to order some Litz wire from theUSA. Re Steve's recent Litz
> wire comments on his FSL Loop and Gary' use of iton his FSL Loops, does
> the much more expensive 660 / 46 Litz wire provide muchbetter
> sensitivity than the 100 /44 wire listed in Gary DeBock's June
> 11writeup for the 7.5 inch Fixed Ferrite Loop? And if the 660 /46 Litz
> Wire isbetter would the 7.5 Inch Loopstick still be required to have
> 122 Turns &1700 uh Inductance as was for the 100 /44 wire, or does this
> all change?
>
> Any comments would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


jerry_popiel
 

This is indeed a dilemma. If I want to build the 7.5 inch Ferrite Antenna, the less sensitive 100/44 wire will need to be used due to width restrictions.  If I try to construct  a larger (much more expensive) FSL Antenna, or use a larger 18 inch Ferrite Rod, than the more sensitive 660/46 Litz wire is the better choice.  I like the idea of an Inductively Coupled Loop because no internal mods of the PL 380 would be required, and it could also be used with other radios such as my G3.  Maybe order a roll of BOTH Guage Litz wires for now?
 
Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a lot more Folks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those Russian Ferrite Rods? 
 
Thanks
Jerry 


Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

Hi Jerry!
 
I can certainly appreciate your dilemma. I decided several months ago to follow the great work of Gary DeBock, Steve Ratzleff and other FSL experimenters rather than take on an FSL project myself. My decision was based on my lack of electronics knowledge and measuring equipmenht, time constraints, concerns about how well the ferrite bars from Eastern Europe would work, as well as the reality that I was very happy with my monster ferrite antennas. I backed into these antennas several years ago, almost by serendipidity. I was able to pick up an Eton E1 for $225 when Circuit City went kaput. I looked for antenna options for the E1 which does not have an internal ferrite bar antenna. I had an old wood frame box loop (3' x 3') I built in the late 1990s using an article from Pop'tronics from then, and had gone through a phase of early MW dxing in the 1980s and had some of the IRCA and NRC antenna manuals, the Joe Carr loop book, and also did a lot of research on the web (crystal radio sites) and the various Yahoo radio and antenna hobby clubs. I came across several references to Stormwise.com, went to their site, found their plans for an AM radio (still on their web site) and ultimately adapted the antenna component as per a synthesis of the above research. At that time Stormwise had a 27" monster ferrite bar (125 mu) suitable for a ferrite bar loop and so I purchased it ($55 if my memormy serves me right). In reading about Litz wire in the various crystal radio sites as well as email communication with Dave Schmarder I decided to go with 660/46 because of the skin conductivity effect.
 
That antenna worked out really well for the E1 in a direct coupled format. I was at Fry's Electronics last summer with my father-in-law and they had a refurb Sat 750 for $120 so I purchased it on a lark. The 27" ferrite bar antenna worked well as an inductively coupled antenna with the 750 but was a bit cumbersome so I purchased the 19" 125 mu ferrite bar from Stormwise ($37 as I recall) and made another monster loop just for inductive coupling (no secondary pick-up coil). I have been very happy with this antenna, which can be seen in action on a You Tube video I made some time ago--it can be found by searching under the term "ferrite rod antenna". I then came across an article by John Bryant and friends about their monster ferrite exoperiments. I found this on the Ultralite web site--a really interesting report. They were particularly happy with a 48" ferrite bar antenna that they made and tested, so I purchased a 48" 125 mu ferrite bar from Stormwise for $100 and am working on this antenna at the moment. I don't know if the extra length will make a difference in my hands--there is not much difference between the 19" and the 27" ferrite bar antenna regarding pick-up or inherent sensitivity. The 19"er is quite a bit lighter in weight and easier to transport. Unfortunately Stormwise does not seem to be selling any more 125 mu ferrite bars so I don't have a good source for one-piece monster ferrite bars anymore--glad I bought these three when I did. Sarmento, a Brazilian MW DXer, has some really nice You Tube videos of smaller multiple rod ferrite bar antennas made by bundling 15-20 smaller ferrite rods together.
 
I am not certain but I think that Gary or one of the other Washington Ultraliters has both an 18" monster ferrite bar antenna and also a MW FSL so he may be the only person who will be able to do the head-to-head comparison you are desiring. I would be very curious as well, especially because I have hardly scratched the DX surface with the current set monster ferrite antennas, and so I don't yet know what I may even be missing!!!
 
Hope this helps--
 
Raph Pollock
 


From: ultralightdx@... [ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of Jerry Popiel [jerry_popiel@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:07 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

This is indeed a dilemma. If I want to build the 7.5 inch Ferrite Antenna, the less sensitive 100/44 wire will need to be used due to width restrictions.  If I try to construct  a larger (much more expensive) FSL Antenna, or use a larger 18 inch Ferrite Rod, than the more sensitive 660/46 Litz wire is the better choice.  I like the idea of an Inductively Coupled Loop because no internal mods of the PL 380 would be required, and it could also be used with other radios such as my G3.  Maybe order a roll of BOTH Guage Litz wires for now?
 
Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a lot more Folks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those Russian Ferrite Rods? 
 
Thanks
Jerry 


Guy Atkins
 


--- In ultralightdx@..., Jerry Popiel wrote:
> Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a lot more Folks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those Russian Ferrite Rods? 
>  
> Thanks
> Jerry 
>

Puyallup, WA Hot-Rodded PL-380 Shootout

Posted by: "D1028Gary@...D1028Gary@...   dxergary

Sun May 9, 2010 6:44 pm (PDT)



Hello All,

With fellow DXing fanatic Guy Atkins also living in the small city of 
Puyallup, WA, we probably have more weird technical projects per capita than 
any place on the planet. Guy is mostly involved in Perseus-SDR DXing and 
state-of-the-art antenna experimentation (for weak-signal TP chasing), but we 
are both creative enough to inspire each other in weird new technical 
directions.

Guy recently designed his outstanding !8' Stormwise ferrite bar Tecsun 
PL-380 model _http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj) , and on this sunny Mother's Day in Puyallup, was eager for 
what would perhaps be the Mother of all Shootouts-- a fight to the finish 
with my own 7.5" Amidon loopstick PL-380 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y_(http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y) . Feeling seriously outgunned, 
I decided to bring along a 36" portable PVC Loop to our local Wildwood 
Park, to show Guy that this lightweight, collapsible monster could make up the 
difference in DXing levels _http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd) . Guy was kind enough to take a photo in 
front of this 36" portable DXing loop 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi_(http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi) , which managed to "clean up" 
chasing Kiwis at Grayland last August 8th.

Guy pulled out his 18" Stormwise PL-380 at Wildwood Park, and I knew I was 
in trouble 
_http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg) . My own 7.5" loopstick PL-380 seemed pretty modest compared to Guy's 
monster _http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf) , so I proceeded to test out the fringe stations with 
trepidation.

As expected, the 18" Stormwise PL-380 had a clear advantage in signal 
quality over the 7.5" Amidon PL-380 during the reception of various fringe 
stations, averaging about 4 dB in superior S/N readings across the band. His 
newly-created PL-380 hotrod is the most sensitive stand-alone AM-DXing 
portable I have ever tested (as well as the most elongated). Guy should have some 
serious fun with this modified PL-380 during his upcoming Oregon 
DXpedition!

The 36" portable PVC loop was also a clear winner, however. Both Guy and I 
were very impressed with the loop's ability to boost almost inaudible DX 
signals up to booming levels, averaging about 15- 20 db across the band. The 
moral of the story is perhaps that both in ferrite loopsticks and air core 
loops, size really does matter :-)

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA) 


Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

Great pictures, Gary! And so to close the loop just a bit further: Guy’s 18” monster ferrite vs your FSL?

 

From: ultralightdx@... [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of thinkdx
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 1:17 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 

 


--- In ultralightdx@..., Jerry Popiel wrote:
> Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a lot more Folks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those Russian Ferrite Rods? 
>  
> Thanks
> Jerry 
>

 

Puyallup, WA Hot-Rodded PL-380 Shootout

Posted by: "D1028Gary@...D1028Gary@...   dxergary

Sun May 9, 2010 6:44 pm (PDT)



Hello All,

With fellow DXing fanatic Guy Atkins also living in the small city of 
Puyallup, WA, we probably have more weird technical projects per capita than 
any place on the planet. Guy is mostly involved in Perseus-SDR DXing and 
state-of-the-art antenna experimentation (for weak-signal TP chasing), but we 
are both creative enough to inspire each other in weird new technical 
directions.

Guy recently designed his outstanding !8' Stormwise ferrite bar Tecsun 
PL-380 model _http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj) , and on this sunny Mother's Day in Puyallup, was eager for 
what would perhaps be the Mother of all Shootouts-- a fight to the finish 
with my own 7.5" Amidon loopstick PL-380 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y_(http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y) . Feeling seriously outgunned, 
I decided to bring along a 36" portable PVC Loop to our local Wildwood 
Park, to show Guy that this lightweight, collapsible monster could make up the 
difference in DXing levels _http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd) . Guy was kind enough to take a photo in 
front of this 36" portable DXing loop 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi_(http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi) , which managed to "clean up" 
chasing Kiwis at Grayland last August 8th.

Guy pulled out his 18" Stormwise PL-380 at Wildwood Park, and I knew I was 
in trouble 
_http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg) . My own 7.5" loopstick PL-380 seemed pretty modest compared to Guy's 
monster _http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf) , so I proceeded to test out the fringe stations with 
trepidation.

As expected, the 18" Stormwise PL-380 had a clear advantage in signal 
quality over the 7.5" Amidon PL-380 during the reception of various fringe 
stations, averaging about 4 dB in superior S/N readings across the band. His 
newly-created PL-380 hotrod is the most sensitive stand-alone AM-DXing 
portable I have ever tested (as well as the most elongated). Guy should have some 
serious fun with this modified PL-380 during his upcoming Oregon 
DXpedition!

The 36" portable PVC loop was also a clear winner, however. Both Guy and I 
were very impressed with the loop's ability to boost almost inaudible DX 
signals up to booming levels, averaging about 15- 20 db across the band. The 
moral of the story is perhaps that both in ferrite loopsticks and air core 
loops, size really does matter :-)

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA) 


Gerald Wolczanski <jerrywolczanski@...>
 

It'd be neat to run the calculations on both antennas and compare them
that way in addition to the actual test - I for one would like to see
how well the formulas hold up in practice.

Cranking on a spreadsheet is infinitely cheaper than building. Is the
info on both antennas available? Turns, rod material, winding length,
Q, rod length/area, etc.

Nice job on the tests.
Jerry W
KI4IO

On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 14:46 -0500, Pollock,Raphael E wrote:


Great pictures, Gary! And so to close the loop just a bit further:
Guy’s 18” monster ferrite vs your FSL?



From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of thinkdx
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 1:17 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is
BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?







--- In ultralightdx@..., Jerry Popiel <jerry_popiel@...>
wrote:
Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite
Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod? And with a lot more
Folks now building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going
to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I
guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those
Russian Ferrite Rods?

Thanks
Jerry



Puyallup, WA Hot-Rodded PL-380 Shootout
Posted by: "D1028Gary@..." D1028Gary@... dxergary
Sun May 9, 2010 6:44 pm (PDT)


Hello All,

With fellow DXing fanatic Guy Atkins also living in the small city of
Puyallup, WA, we probably have more weird technical projects per
capita than
any place on the planet. Guy is mostly involved in Perseus-SDR DXing
and
state-of-the-art antenna experimentation (for weak-signal TP chasing),
but we
are both creative enough to inspire each other in weird new technical
directions.

Guy recently designed his outstanding !8' Stormwise ferrite bar
Tecsun
PL-380 model _http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj_
(http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj) , and on this sunny Mother's
Day in Puyallup, was eager for
what would perhaps be the Mother of all Shootouts-- a fight to the
finish
with my own 7.5" Amidon loopstick PL-380
_http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y_(http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y) . Feeling seriously outgunned,
I decided to bring along a 36" portable PVC Loop to our local
Wildwood
Park, to show Guy that this lightweight, collapsible monster could
make up the
difference in DXing levels _http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd_
(http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd) . Guy was kind enough to take
a photo in
front of this 36" portable DXing loop
_http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi_(http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi) , which managed to "clean up"
chasing Kiwis at Grayland last August 8th.

Guy pulled out his 18" Stormwise PL-380 at Wildwood Park, and I knew I
was
in trouble
_http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg_
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg) . My own 7.5" loopstick PL-380 seemed pretty modest compared to Guy's
monster _http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf_
(http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf) , so I proceeded to test out
the fringe stations with
trepidation.

As expected, the 18" Stormwise PL-380 had a clear advantage in signal
quality over the 7.5" Amidon PL-380 during the reception of various
fringe
stations, averaging about 4 dB in superior S/N readings across the
band. His
newly-created PL-380 hotrod is the most sensitive stand-alone
AM-DXing
portable I have ever tested (as well as the most
elongated). Guy should have some
serious fun with this modified PL-380 during his upcoming Oregon
DXpedition!

The 36" portable PVC loop was also a clear winner, however.
Both Guy and I
were very impressed with the loop's ability to boost almost inaudible
DX
signals up to booming levels, averaging about 15- 20 db across the
band. The
moral of the story is perhaps that both in ferrite loopsticks and air
core
loops, size really does matter :-)

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA)


Back to top









Gary DeBock
 

Hello Raph,

Guy is currently at the Oregon beach with his family, having his own
chance at South Pacific DXing fun.

Before he left Puyallup I made him a 6.5" diameter MW-optimized FSL for
his use at the beach. It was a crash project created in half a day, but
as I recall it had about 65 of the Russian surplus 140mm x 8mm ferrite
rods with 660/46 Litz wire, an 8:1 vernier drive "N50P" variable cap
from Crystal Radio Supply, and tuned from 470-1700 kHz as constructed.
Of course, it had the latest improvements derived from two months of
FSL experimentatation and A/B testing here. I don't know how much time
Guy will have to DX during his family vacation, but he may have some
ideas to share later about the 6.5" FSL performance relative to his 18"
Stormwise PL-380 model.

73 and Good DX,
Gary DeBock

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Fri, Jul 22, 2011 12:46 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44)
is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Great pictures, Gary! And so to close the loop just a bitfurther: Guy’s
18” monster ferrite vs your FSL? From:ultralightdx@... [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf thinkdx
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 1:17 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44)
isBetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

  

--- In ultralightdx@..., Jerry Popiel
&lt;jerry_popiel@...>wrote:
Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite
Rod Loopcompares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a
lot moreFolks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there
going tobe any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which
I guess alsodepends on the availability on the internet of those
Russian FerriteRods? 
 
Thanks
Jerry 
 
Puyallup, WA Hot-Rodded PL-380 ShootoutPosted by:
"D1028Gary@..." D1028Gary@...   dxergarySun May 9, 20106:44 pm
(PDT)

Hello All,

With fellow DXing fanatic Guy Atkins also living in the small cityof 
Puyallup,WA, we probably have more weird technical projects per capita
than 
any place on the planet. Guy is mostly involved in Perseus-SDRDXing and 
state-of-the-art antenna experimentation (for weak-signal TP chasing),
butwe 
are both creative enough to inspire each other in weird new technical 
directions.

Guy recentlydesigned his outstanding !8' Stormwise ferrite bar Tecsun 
PL-380 model_http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj) , andon this sunny Mother's Day
in Puyallup, was eager for 
what would perhaps be the Mother of all Shootouts-- a fight to the
finish 
with my own 7.5" Amidon loopstick PL-380 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y_(http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0
bm2y) .Feeling seriously outgunned, 
I decided to bring along a 36" portable PVC Loop to our localWildwood 
Park, to show Guy thatthis lightweight, collapsible monster could make
up the 
difference in DXing levels _http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd) . Guy waskind enough to take a
photo in 
front of this 36" portable DXing loop 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi_(http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyj
jydi) , whichmanaged to "clean up" 
chasing Kiwis at Grayland last August 8th.

Guy pulledout his 18" Stormwise PL-380 at Wildwood Park, and I knew
Iwas 
in trouble 
_http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg)
. My own 7.5"loopstick PL-380 seemedpretty modest compared to Guy's 
monster _http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf) , so Iproceeded to test out the
fringe stations with 
trepidation.

As expected, the 18" Stormwise PL-380 had a clearadvantage in signal 
quality over the 7.5" Amidon PL-380 during the reception of
variousfringe 
stations, averaging about 4 dB in superior S/N readings across the
band.His 
newly-created PL-380 hotrodis the most sensitive stand-alone AM-DXing 
portable I have ever tested (as well as the most elongated). Guy shouldhave some 
serious fun with this modified PL-380 during his upcoming Oregon 
DXpedition!

The 36" portable PVC loop was also a clear winner, however.
Both Guy andI 
were very impressed with the loop's ability to boost almost inaudible
DX 
signals up to booming levels, averaging about 15- 20 db across the
band.The 
moral of the story is perhaps that both in ferrite loopsticks and
aircore 
loops, size really does matter :-)

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA) 
Back to top


Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
 

Thanks Gary--I am really excited to see what Guy can learn this week--just wish that Stormwise had not given up on the 125 mu monster ferrite bars!
 

From: D1028Gary@... [mailto:D1028Gary@...]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:01 PM
To: ultralightdx@... <ultralightdx@...>
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?
 
 

Hello Raph,

Guy is currently at the Oregon beach with his family, having his own
chance at South Pacific DXing fun.

Before he left Puyallup I made him a 6.5" diameter MW-optimized FSL for
his use at the beach. It was a crash project created in half a day, but
as I recall it had about 65 of the Russian surplus 140mm x 8mm ferrite
rods with 660/46 Litz wire, an 8:1 vernier drive "N50P" variable cap
from Crystal Radio Supply, and tuned from 470-1700 kHz as constructed.
Of course, it had the latest improvements derived from two months of
FSL experimentatation and A/B testing here. I don't know how much time
Guy will have to DX during his family vacation, but he may have some
ideas to share later about the 6.5" FSL performance relative to his 18"
Stormwise PL-380 model.

73 and Good DX,
Gary DeBock

-----Original Message-----
From: Pollock,Raphael E <rpollock@...>
To: 'ultralightdx@...' <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Fri, Jul 22, 2011 12:46 pm
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44)
is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

 
Great pictures, Gary! And so to close the loop just a bitfurther: Guy’s
18” monster ferrite vs your FSL? From:ultralightdx@...
[mailto:ultralightdx@...] On BehalfOf thinkdx
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 1:17 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44)
isBetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?

  

--- In ultralightdx@..., Jerry Popiel
&lt;jerry_popiel@...&gt;wrote:
&gt; Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite
Rod Loopcompares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod?  And with a
lot moreFolks now  building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there
going tobe any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which
I guess alsodepends on the availability on the internet of those
Russian FerriteRods? 
&gt;  
&gt; Thanks
&gt; Jerry 
&gt; 
Puyallup, WA Hot-Rodded PL-380 ShootoutPosted by:
"D1028Gary@...D1028Gary@...   dxergarySun May 9, 20106:44 pm
(PDT)

Hello All,

With fellow DXing fanatic Guy Atkins also living in the small cityof 
Puyallup,WA, we probably have more weird technical projects per capita
than 
any place on the planet. Guy is mostly involved in Perseus-SDRDXing and 
state-of-the-art antenna experimentation (for weak-signal TP chasing),
butwe 
are both creative enough to inspire each other in weird new technical 
directions.

Guy recentlydesigned his outstanding !8' Stormwise ferrite bar Tecsun 
PL-380 model_http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?imykf4ndnnj) , andon this sunny Mother's Day
in Puyallup, was eager for 
what would perhaps be the Mother of all Shootouts-- a fight to the
finish 
with my own 7.5" Amidon loopstick PL-380 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0bm2y_(http://www.mediafire.com/?ntwyin0
bm2y) .Feeling seriously outgunned, 
I decided to bring along a 36" portable PVC Loop to our localWildwood 
Park, to show Guy thatthis lightweight, collapsible monster could make
up the 
difference in DXing levels _http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?2m0n2ojb2yd) . Guy waskind enough to take a
photo in 
front of this 36" portable DXing loop 
_http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyjjydi_(http://www.mediafire.com/?uy0mwyj
jydi) , whichmanaged to "clean up" 
chasing Kiwis at Grayland last August 8th.

Guy pulledout his 18" Stormwise PL-380 at Wildwood Park, and I knew
Iwas 
in trouble 
_http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/w0gjm1fzo4m/Stormwise-Shootout-004.jpg)
. My own 7.5"loopstick PL-380 seemedpretty modest compared to Guy's 
monster _http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf_ 
(http://www.mediafire.com/?mo0gjynwjzf) , so Iproceeded to test out the
fringe stations with 
trepidation.

As expected, the 18" Stormwise PL-380 had a clearadvantage in signal 
quality over the 7.5" Amidon PL-380 during the reception of
variousfringe 
stations, averaging about 4 dB in superior S/N readings across the
band.His 
newly-created PL-380 hotrodis the most sensitive stand-alone AM-DXing 
portable I have ever tested (as well as the most
elongated). Guy shouldhave some 
serious fun with this modified PL-380 during his upcoming Oregon 
DXpedition!

The 36" portable PVC loop was also a clear winner, however.
Both Guy andI 
were very impressed with the loop's ability to boost almost inaudible
DX 
signals up to booming levels, averaging about 15- 20 db across the
band.The 
moral of the story is perhaps that both in ferrite loopsticks and
aircore 
loops, size really does matter :-)

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA) 
Back to top
 


jerry_popiel
 

Thanks for your informative comments Raphael. I have decided on the 7.5 inch Ferrite Loop, and as Gary DeBock suggests the 100/44 wire will only work with it so that is what I'm going with for now. I have seen those Brazilian DX Club videos as well but they certainly look beyond our financial reach st least for now.

--- In ultralightdx@..., "Pollock,Raphael E" <rpollock@...> wrote:

Hi Jerry!

I can certainly appreciate your dilemma. I decided several months ago to follow the great work of Gary DeBock, Steve Ratzleff and other FSL experimenters rather than take on an FSL project myself. My decision was based on my lack of electronics knowledge and measuring equipmenht, time constraints, concerns about how well the ferrite bars from Eastern Europe would work, as well as the reality that I was very happy with my monster ferrite antennas. I backed into these antennas several years ago, almost by serendipidity. I was able to pick up an Eton E1 for $225 when Circuit City went kaput. I looked for antenna options for the E1 which does not have an internal ferrite bar antenna. I had an old wood frame box loop (3' x 3') I built in the late 1990s using an article from Pop'tronics from then, and had gone through a phase of early MW dxing in the 1980s and had some of the IRCA and NRC antenna manuals, the Joe Carr loop book, and also did a lot of research on the web (crystal radio sites) and the various Yahoo radio and antenna hobby clubs. I came across several references to Stormwise.com, went to their site, found their plans for an AM radio (still on their web site) and ultimately adapted the antenna component as per a synthesis of the above research. At that time Stormwise had a 27" monster ferrite bar (125 mu) suitable for a ferrite bar loop and so I purchased it ($55 if my memormy serves me right). In reading about Litz wire in the various crystal radio sites as well as email communication with Dave Schmarder I decided to go with 660/46 because of the skin conductivity effect.

That antenna worked out really well for the E1 in a direct coupled format. I was at Fry's Electronics last summer with my father-in-law and they had a refurb Sat 750 for $120 so I purchased it on a lark. The 27" ferrite bar antenna worked well as an inductively coupled antenna with the 750 but was a bit cumbersome so I purchased the 19" 125 mu ferrite bar from Stormwise ($37 as I recall) and made another monster loop just for inductive coupling (no secondary pick-up coil). I have been very happy with this antenna, which can be seen in action on a You Tube video I made some time ago--it can be found by searching under the term "ferrite rod antenna". I then came across an article by John Bryant and friends about their monster ferrite exoperiments. I found this on the Ultralite web site--a really interesting report. They were particularly happy with a 48" ferrite bar antenna that they made and tested, so I purchased a 48" 125 mu ferrite bar from Stormwise for $100 and am working on this antenna at the moment. I don't know if the extra length will make a difference in my hands--there is not much difference between the 19" and the 27" ferrite bar antenna regarding pick-up or inherent sensitivity. The 19"er is quite a bit lighter in weight and easier to transport. Unfortunately Stormwise does not seem to be selling any more 125 mu ferrite bars so I don't have a good source for one-piece monster ferrite bars anymore--glad I bought these three when I did. Sarmento, a Brazilian MW DXer, has some really nice You Tube videos of smaller multiple rod ferrite bar antennas made by bundling 15-20 smaller ferrite rods together.

I am not certain but I think that Gary or one of the other Washington Ultraliters has both an 18" monster ferrite bar antenna and also a MW FSL so he may be the only person who will be able to do the head-to-head comparison you are desiring. I would be very curious as well, especially because I have hardly scratched the DX surface with the current set monster ferrite antennas, and so I don't yet know what I may even be missing!!!

Hope this helps--

Raph Pollock

________________________________
From: ultralightdx@... [ultralightdx@...] On Behalf Of Jerry Popiel [jerry_popiel@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:07 PM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: RE: [ultralightdx] Which Litz Wire (660 / 46 or 100/44) is BetterTo Order for 7,5 Fixed Loop?



This is indeed a dilemma. If I want to build the 7.5 inch Ferrite Antenna, the less sensitive 100/44 wire will need to be used due to width restrictions. If I try to construct a larger (much more expensive) FSL Antenna, or use a larger 18 inch Ferrite Rod, than the more sensitive 660/46 Litz wire is the better choice. I like the idea of an Inductively Coupled Loop because no internal mods of the PL 380 would be required, and it could also be used with other radios such as my G3. Maybe order a roll of BOTH Guage Litz wires for now?

Are there any comparison Tests or Data on how the 18 inch Ferrite Rod Loop compares to Gary's 7.5 inch Ferrite Rod? And with a lot more Folks now building and experimenting with FSL Loops, are there going to be any future detailed writeups on building one of them, which I guess also depends on the availability on the internet of those Russian Ferrite Rods?

Thanks
Jerry