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Re: Antenna theory question- FARMERIK

Rik
 

Moving my radio farther from the computer and cable box really helps, but I like to mix Radio listening and online sessions. That was the sort of effect I had in mind.

OK, so if I was going to wind a loop to connect, instead of the whip, to the FET amplified antenna base, what would be a reasonable target inductance?

-FARMERIK

--- In ultralightdx@..., Russ Edmunds <wb2bjh@...> wrote:

My quick answer is also a short one - no. A vertical antenna will in and of itself pick up more noise, largely because the character of electrical noise is that it tends to have a much larger vertical component than horizontal. A metal plate ground plane below it would affect the antenna's reception pattern ( for both signals and noise ) but wouldn't likely have any notable effect at reducing noise.

There are two primary ways to reduce noise - first is to use a magnetic antenna such as a loop. The second is to use noise reduction techniques on the feedline from the antenna ( baluns, chokes, inductive coupling, etc. ), however this latter is more effective on lower-noise antennas such as flags, pennants, etc.

Sorry to say, I doubt you will see significant noise reduction.

Russ Edmunds
15 mi NNW of Philadelphia
Grid FN20id
<wb2bjh@...>
FM: Yamaha T-80 & Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8
AM:  Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot

--- On Sun, 8/7/11, farmerik <farmerik@...> wrote:

From: farmerik <farmerik@...>
Subject: [ultralightdx] Antenna theory question- FARMERIK
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Sunday, August 7, 2011, 9:35 AM







 









I recently ordered a SONY amplified antenna covering LW MW & SW which uses a whip. For a vertical whip, should I expect it to be some what shielded from house hold RFI if I mount it directly above a grounded plate [plane] in the attic, above all sources or RFI, or would I need to go way off to the side of my house outdoors to get away from RFI?



I expect opinions to vary, but I'd like to hear several to consider.



I live on a hill top, and suffer frequent nearby lightning strikes, so it would be unwise to have a really tall antenna, above the lightning rod system for the house.



My goal is less RFI, not the ultimate DX ing antenna.



Waiting for the antenna in CT-FARMERIK
Re: Antenna theory question- FARMERIK

Russ Edmunds <wb2bjh@...>
 

My quick answer is also a short one - no. A vertical antenna will in and of itself pick up more noise, largely because the character of electrical noise is that it tends to have a much larger vertical component than horizontal. A metal plate ground plane below it would affect the antenna's reception pattern ( for both signals and noise ) but wouldn't likely have any notable effect at reducing noise.

There are two primary ways to reduce noise - first is to use a magnetic antenna such as a loop. The second is to use noise reduction techniques on the feedline from the antenna ( baluns, chokes, inductive coupling, etc. ), however this latter is more effective on lower-noise antennas such as flags, pennants, etc.

Sorry to say, I doubt you will see significant noise reduction.

Russ Edmunds
15 mi NNW of Philadelphia
Grid FN20id

FM: Yamaha T-80 & Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8
AM:  Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot


--- On Sun, 8/7/11, farmerik wrote:

From: farmerik
Subject: [ultralightdx] Antenna theory question- FARMERIK
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Sunday, August 7, 2011, 9:35 AM

 

I recently ordered a SONY amplified antenna covering LW MW & SW which uses a whip. For a vertical whip, should I expect it to be some what shielded from house hold RFI if I mount it directly above a grounded plate [plane] in the attic, above all sources or RFI, or would I need to go way off to the side of my house outdoors to get away from RFI?

I expect opinions to vary, but I'd like to hear several to consider.

I live on a hill top, and suffer frequent nearby lightning strikes, so it would be unwise to have a really tall antenna, above the lightning rod system for the house.

My goal is less RFI, not the ultimate DX ing antenna.

Waiting for the antenna in CT-FARMERIK
Antenna theory question- FARMERIK

Rik
 

I recently ordered a SONY amplified antenna covering LW MW & SW which uses a whip. For a vertical whip, should I expect it to be some what shielded from house hold RFI if I mount it directly above a grounded plate [plane] in the attic, above all sources or RFI, or would I need to go way off to the side of my house outdoors to get away from RFI?

I expect opinions to vary, but I'd like to hear several to consider.

I live on a hill top, and suffer frequent nearby lightning strikes, so it would be unwise to have a really tall antenna, above the lightning rod system for the house.


My goal is less RFI, not the ultimate DX ing antenna.

Waiting for the antenna in CT-FARMERIK
Non ULR log

patrice.privat
 

Hi
 
Last night (saturday)
 
1062 RAI-1
1116  RAI-1
900 RAI-1 (Milan)
936 RAI-1
1575 RAI-1
1503 IRIB (Bushehr) Prayers in Farsi, **4670km**
990 DR-Kultur (Berlin)
 
patrice
 
Beauvais (jn19bk)
Panasonic RFB45 Barefoot
 
 
Re: SSB DX

patrice.privat
 


Hiya
 
I belong to a "heavy" group for MW DX but I will be happy to contribute to your group too as soon as I buy an ULR, probably the Tecsun 606.
Strangely enough, in my other radio hobby (Sporadic E FMDX) I'm the ultralight of the group with no outdoor aerial but with 111 stations logged in 3 summers, I can't compete with those who have erected huge Yagis on their roofs and log 1,000 stations + in one 3 months season only.
Your democratic"all in the same tech league" approach is interesting and I can't wait to start producing logs.
Expect me in the log column soon.
 
Cheers de Pat
 
right now listening to Radio Caroline 6240 khz at 0653GMT
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [ultralightdx] SSB DX

 

Hello Patrice,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Actually North American west coast DXers have an even greater challenge
to receive Asian and South Pacific 9 kHz-plan AM stations across the
Pacific Ocean than the European DXers have to receive the North
American 10 kHz-plan stations across the Atlantic ocean. The Asian
stations are much farther away, and are typically weaker. It's a tough
challenge, but we have done it many times with AM-only Ultralight
radios, often without any external antennas. Under rare conditions,
we've even received a couple of European TA stations (1134-Croatia and
1215-Absolute) this way on barefoot Ultralight radios, here on the
North American west coast.

The point is that it's going to be a challenge using the AM-mode only
radios to chase transoceanic DX this way, but we accept that challenge.
It's part of our separate identity as a group. Those looking for the
easiest way to receive DX on small radios are probably in the wrong
group. The Ultralight group was founded to emphasize the challenge of
DXing with AM-only pocket radios, and the founding fathers knew that if
someday an SSB-capable "communications receiver in your hand" was
developed and accepted as an Ultralight, the challenge would be gone.
For over 3 years the AM-only challenge has served us well, having led
to booming growth in our 1000+ member group, extremely vibrant antenna
experimenation and general rejuvenation in our members' AM-DXing
interest. But there is no way that we can meet the needs of everyone,
and we don't plan to try. Those who find our Ultralight classification
rules overly restrictive are certainly free to form their own Yahoo
groups, and enjoy DXing as they see fit. Adios amigos, and we wish you
all the best!

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA)
Ultralight Group Co-founder

-----Original Message-----
From: patrice privat <patrice.privat@...>
To: ultralightdx <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Fri, Aug 5, 2011 11:56 pm
Subject: [ultralightdx] SSB DX

 
Hi

Europeans and NorthAmericans may not have the same approach as to the
use of SSB for MW DX-ing.
I have almost never been able to log T/A stations without SSB.
The band is crowded here from 531 to 1611 and all by powerhouses (a US
powerhouse at 50 kw is a sub-regional broadcaster here).
To log a TA thru our narrow DX windows, SSB is an effective tool
against QRM.
This morning I logged only 1 T/A at 0345 GMT (an unidentified Rumba
station on 1520 khz) but I could not have done it WITHOUT SSB.
Maybe the X-band is an exception as it is empty here except a few
occasional pirates but they are not active at sunrise.

But of course I'll personally stick to the group's rules when I lay my
hands on my first ULR but these will be Euro/North African logs only
I'm afraid.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Patrice
Re: SSB DX

Gary DeBock
 

Hello Patrice,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Actually North American west coast DXers have an even greater challenge
to receive Asian and South Pacific 9 kHz-plan AM stations across the
Pacific Ocean than the European DXers have to receive the North
American 10 kHz-plan stations across the Atlantic ocean. The Asian
stations are much farther away, and are typically weaker. It's a tough
challenge, but we have done it many times with AM-only Ultralight
radios, often without any external antennas. Under rare conditions,
we've even received a couple of European TA stations (1134-Croatia and
1215-Absolute) this way on barefoot Ultralight radios, here on the
North American west coast.

The point is that it's going to be a challenge using the AM-mode only
radios to chase transoceanic DX this way, but we accept that challenge.
It's part of our separate identity as a group. Those looking for the
easiest way to receive DX on small radios are probably in the wrong
group. The Ultralight group was founded to emphasize the challenge of
DXing with AM-only pocket radios, and the founding fathers knew that if
someday an SSB-capable "communications receiver in your hand" was
developed and accepted as an Ultralight, the challenge would be gone.
For over 3 years the AM-only challenge has served us well, having led
to booming growth in our 1000+ member group, extremely vibrant antenna
experimenation and general rejuvenation in our members' AM-DXing
interest. But there is no way that we can meet the needs of everyone,
and we don't plan to try. Those who find our Ultralight classification
rules overly restrictive are certainly free to form their own Yahoo
groups, and enjoy DXing as they see fit. Adios amigos, and we wish you
all the best!

73, Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA)
Ultralight Group Co-founder

-----Original Message-----
From: patrice privat <patrice.privat@...>
To: ultralightdx <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: Fri, Aug 5, 2011 11:56 pm
Subject: [ultralightdx] SSB DX

 
Hi

Europeans and NorthAmericans may not have the same approach as to the
use of SSB for MW DX-ing.
I have almost never been able to log T/A stations without SSB.
The band is crowded here from 531 to 1611 and all by powerhouses (a US
powerhouse at 50 kw is a sub-regional broadcaster here).
To log a TA thru our narrow DX windows, SSB is an effective tool
against QRM.
This morning I logged only 1 T/A at 0345 GMT (an unidentified Rumba
station on 1520 khz) but I could not have done it WITHOUT SSB.
Maybe the X-band is an exception as it is empty here except a few
occasional pirates but they are not active at sunrise.

But of course I'll personally stick to the group's rules when I lay my
hands on my first ULR but these will be Euro/North African logs only
I'm afraid.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Patrice
Re: SSB ultralight class

Kevin Schanilec
 

Thanks Neil, as well as to others who have contributed to this email string. As you say, the definitions of what constitutes an Ultralight radio indeed went through quite a process to create them, and a slight revision that also took a lot of time and care. At all junctures of the process, SSB has consistently been considered outside the scope of this particular niche of the hobby.

Asking for the inclusion of something like SSB here is perhaps like asking a QRP group to go above 5 watts. I like this quote from a QRP site: "Take away power, and you are left with skill, inventiveness, challenge, and enthusiasm that are very similar to the attractions of the hobby in its earliest days". That is exactly what we are also seeking to cultivate, and I appreciate that so many (we're over a thousand members now) are able to accept that those are the "ground rules" upon which we operate.

Alas, I doubt that this Group has enough clout, such that precluding SSB from the definitions has any influence over whether or not manufacturers include it on new radios. Tecsun and others apparently don't heed our recurring pleas for less soft-mute, decent ferrites, or other design changes that would be very inexpensive to change for the better. My guess is that the target demographic for manufacturers, the casual listener in Asia, does not want/need SSB, synch or other such features, which is why we aren't seeing them on new models.

Thanks - Kevin S
Moderator

--- In ultralightdx@..., "neilkj6fba" <kj6fba@...> wrote:

The founders of this group decided on a strict set of rules and the group has certainly done well. These rules are very unlikely to be modified and that is clearly their right. I respect their right to have rules and enforce them rigidly. I also enjoy reading the experimentation they are doing with antennas attached to the ULRs.

Like a number of people, I am a long time radio fan and regularly use SSB, passband tuning, ECSS and the like in my DX efforts. One downside to the strict rules is it does not encourage manufacturers to develop and implement newer technologies. Perhaps some one will set up a group for the advanced technology small portable radios.

Neil Bell
KJ6FBA

--- In ultralightdx@..., "R. Mark Barnett" <orgelkraft@> wrote:

I propose an ultralight class that INCLUDES SSB. WHY? As someone who USES SSB and would like to see it on ALL radios with SW bands. SSB has uses on MW as well. A group that is LOOKING for low-end radios with SSB will cause BETTER radios to be built overall. I would like to buy a cheap DSP radio with SSB... but where are they? A feature that is included can be ignored MUCH easier than adding it after the fact. 
Mark Barnett   N8PGV  I want my SSB
GET SWABBED!!! Save a Life by becoming a bone marrow donor. A child near YOU is DYING for a transplant!  http://www.dkmsamericas.org/  Organize a Bone Marrow Donor Drive in YOUR Town or Church!
Re: SSB ultralight class

neilkj6fba <kj6fba@...>
 

The founders of this group decided on a strict set of rules and the group has certainly done well. These rules are very unlikely to be modified and that is clearly their right. I respect their right to have rules and enforce them rigidly. I also enjoy reading the experimentation they are doing with antennas attached to the ULRs.

Like a number of people, I am a long time radio fan and regularly use SSB, passband tuning, ECSS and the like in my DX efforts. One downside to the strict rules is it does not encourage manufacturers to develop and implement newer technologies. Perhaps some one will set up a group for the advanced technology small portable radios.

Neil Bell
KJ6FBA

--- In ultralightdx@..., "R. Mark Barnett" <orgelkraft@...> wrote:

I propose an ultralight class that INCLUDES SSB. WHY? As someone who USES SSB and would like to see it on ALL radios with SW bands. SSB has uses on MW as well. A group that is LOOKING for low-end radios with SSB will cause BETTER radios to be built overall. I would like to buy a cheap DSP radio with SSB... but where are they? A feature that is included can be ignored MUCH easier than adding it after the fact. 
Mark Barnett   N8PGV  I want my SSB
GET SWABBED!!! Save a Life by becoming a bone marrow donor. A child near YOU is DYING for a transplant!  http://www.dkmsamericas.org/  Organize a Bone Marrow Donor Drive in YOUR Town or Church!
Re: SSB DX

Michael <michael.setaazul@...>
 

Absolutely no way "worthless", Kirk!

We all have great memories. I discovered
passband tuning with a patched-up Drake R4B.
It is still in the loft, awaiting rejuvenification with
a few ICs in lieu of deceased tubes - but I would
save the last tubes for the sacrosanct passband section !
Compared to a battleship radio, the R4B was ultralight :-)


Michael UK

----- Original Message -------------------------------------------

Subject: SSB DX


Wow! You guys are speaking in terms I've not heard of nor thought about in a fair number of years. I
truly do miss the SSB pass band tuning receptions I used to receive on the hf bands "back in the
day" as they say! We called it what...ECSS, exalted carrier single sideband. I think that's the term
I've been trying to remember. That was truly the only way to fly on the tropical bands for logging
those fun Indonesian and Andino stations scattered throughout the lower bands that are now covered
up by domestic religious stations. I wonder what the listeners in foreign countries think about the
USA these days?. This posting I know is worthless, but you fellas just brought back some cool
memories. Thanks!

Kirk Allen
Ponca City, OK
Re: Could the iPhone become an Ultralight ?

Michael <michael.setaazul@...>
 

Jeff, let us know how it works with the G8.

Michael UK

----- Original Message -----
. .
More to the topic, I have a Grundig Aviator G6 and also a Grundig G8.
I'll have to give one or both a try with Perseus running on my
MSI Wnd U123 NetBook. Should be fun.

Jeff, WB1AAL
Another New XE Logged This Morning

Kirk
 

Hideeho Everyone,

Persistence does indeed pay off now and then. This morning I was finally able to nail down a positive ID on a weak XE station I'd been hearing sporadically during the last two months. Heard best on my Sony T-615 w/ the usual SAT.

1040, XEHES, Chihuahua, CH, 1120-1147 UTC, 8/6/11, this one started as a super weak sig underneath XEGYS (Sonora) and WHO. By 1125 they were up and copiable with a pop mx format. They played some great old 70's hits from the USA and a few in SS as well. IDs were confusing at first. Noted several call ltr IDs but w/ a vy heavy echo effect. Slick production from this one to say the least. One of the slogans hrd went something like "Escuchas 10-40 (diez-quarenta) la numero uno, Radiorama." Hrd a funny lcl ad that mentioned something about beating the stampede to a certain store in Chihuahua. I wish my SS was better. Slick canned ID/slogans mentioned "en 10-40 AM en Chihuahua." Really a fun reception. ULR #779, LAm #155-

Kirk Allen
Ponca City, OK
Re: Could the iPhone become an Ultralight ?

Jeffrey Fritz <jnfritz07@...>
 

Thanks for all the comments and the suggestions about Perseus.

As I mentioned to Steve, I am using N4PY's Pegasus application running as a front end controlling both PowerSDR and an Alinco DX-R8 receiver simultaneously. This allows me plenty of processing power to handle all the CPU intensive tasks involved in doing a full blown SDR along with CAT. Though this setup is not an ultralight in any sense of the word.

More to the topic, I have a Grundig Aviator G6 and also a Grundig G8. I'll have to give one or both a try with Perseus running on my MSI Wnd U123 NetBook. Should be fun.

Jeff, WB1AAL
Re: SSB DX

Kirk
 

Wow! You guys are speaking in terms I've not heard of nor thought about in a fair number of years. I truly do miss the SSB pass band tuning receptions I used to receive on the hf bands "back in the day" as they say! We called it what...ECSS, exalted carrier single sideband. I think that's the term I've been trying to remember. That was truly the only way to fly on the tropical bands for logging those fun Indonesian and Andino stations scattered throughout the lower bands that are now covered up by domestic religious stations. I wonder what the listeners in foreign countries think about the USA these days?. This posting I know is worthless, but you fellas just brought back some cool memories. Thanks!

Kirk Allen
Ponca City, OK
Re: SSB DX

Graeme Zimmer <gzimmer@...>
 

Michael wrote:

This will, in part, be a function of the filter flanks, noise etc.
DSP certainly can perform.
I suggest you are comparing Apples with Oranges. It is pointless to compare a poor SSB filter with a good AM filter.

Basic Communications theory says that listening to one Sideband will always give better signal-to-noise ratio than listening to the wider B/W necessary for AM.

Not to mention the advantage of being able to switch sidebands to avoid QRM.

Certainly post-DSP can clean up AM audio, but it can give the same improvement to SSB.

AM can be good, Synchronous AM can do better, selectable SSB will almost always be better still.

The one exception is when the original carrier is unstable (eg has considerable FM).

............ Zim
Re: SSB DX

Michael <michael.setaazul@...>
 

Okay, lets agree to disagree about that, Graeme!

Results will depend on experience with equipment, modes etc.
I have found a PL-380 with 1-2kHz bandwidth to often give better
signal readability than USB, LSB or synchronous on non-uldx receivers.
This will, in part, be a function of the filter flanks, noise etc.
DSP certainly can perform.

Michael UK

----- Original Message ------------------------------------------------

From: "Graeme Zimmer"

A ULR with variable DSP bandwidth will perform at least as well
as SSB - better in many instances.
Sorry, but no it won't.

The optimum bandwidth for SSB (2.4 KHz or so) and the ability to switch
sidebands is about as good as it can get.

Certainly it will be way ahead of any AM detector...

......... Zim

------------------------------------
Re: SSB DX

Graeme Zimmer <gzimmer@...>
 

A ULR with variable DSP bandwidth will perform at least as well
as SSB - better in many instances.
Sorry, but no it won't.

The optimum bandwidth for SSB (2.4 KHz or so) and the ability to switch sidebands is about as good as it can get.

Certainly it will be way ahead of any AM detector...

......... Zim
Re: SSB DX

Michael <michael.setaazul@...>
 

Patrice,

SSB can certainly help to resolve marginal AM,
as does synchronous detection. Enhanced SSB
with passband tuning and variable carrier-insertion offset
helps even more! But that would defeat the object of our intent.

A ULR with variable DSP bandwidth will perform at least as well
as SSB - better in many instances. The 9kHz v 10kHz heterodyne
is often a pointer to a lurking New World station. MW DX is often
resolved with narrow filtering and/or slight off-tuning. This approximates
to offset carrier reinsertion. Of course, optimising the aerial and its
nulling properties improves resolution further. Even without SSB,
we have plenty of scope!

Michael UK

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrice privat" <patrice.privat@...>
To: <ultralightdx@...>
Sent: 06 August 2011 07:56
Subject: [ultralightdx] SSB DX


Hi

Europeans and NorthAmericans may not have the same approach as to the use of SSB for MW DX-ing.
I have almost never been able to log T/A stations without SSB.
The band is crowded here from 531 to 1611 and all by powerhouses (a US powerhouse at 50 kw is a
sub-regional broadcaster here).
To log a TA thru our narrow DX windows, SSB is an effective tool against QRM.
This morning I logged only 1 T/A at 0345 GMT (an unidentified Rumba station on 1520 khz) but I could
not have done it WITHOUT SSB.
Maybe the X-band is an exception as it is empty here except a few occasional pirates but they are
not active at sunrise.

But of course I'll personally stick to the group's rules when I lay my hands on my first ULR but
these will be Euro/North African logs only I'm afraid.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Patrice







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
SSB DX

patrice.privat
 

Hi

Europeans and NorthAmericans may not have the same approach as to the use of SSB for MW DX-ing.
I have almost never been able to log T/A stations without SSB.
The band is crowded here from 531 to 1611 and all by powerhouses (a US powerhouse at 50 kw is a sub-regional broadcaster here).
To log a TA thru our narrow DX windows, SSB is an effective tool against QRM.
This morning I logged only 1 T/A at 0345 GMT (an unidentified Rumba station on 1520 khz) but I could not have done it WITHOUT SSB.
Maybe the X-band is an exception as it is empty here except a few occasional pirates but they are not active at sunrise.

But of course I'll personally stick to the group's rules when I lay my hands on my first ULR but these will be Euro/North African logs only I'm afraid.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Patrice
Re: Am I qualified ? Well, Guess not..

patrice.privat
 

many thanks for all the comments and advice.
yeah the 606 looks interesting, and it's widely available.
i have to think it over a bit more.
for now i am listening to a pirate on 1656 khz on my "heavy" Icom R75.

cheers to you all.

Patrice

---> >
Re: SSB ultralight class

Michael <michael.setaazul@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Mark Barnett"
Subject: [ultralightdx] SSB ultralight class


I propose an ultralight class that INCLUDES SSB. WHY? As someone who USES SSB and would like to see
it on ALL radios with SW bands. SSB has uses on MW as well. A group that is LOOKING for low-end
radios with SSB will cause BETTER radios to be built overall. I would like to buy a cheap DSP radio
with SSB... but where are they? A feature that is included can be ignored MUCH easier than adding it
after the fact.
Mark Barnett N8PGV I want my SSB

*************************************************************************************************

I am a keen uldx observer and, when I joined the group, fully accepted
the established norms and am very happy with the way things are and
the quality of support and contributions. ( I might try an external ferrite with
Q-multiplier - but would not suggest the uldx norms be modified to include extraneous
notions in my mind.) I am very much an HF SSB man, having spent many years
operating, maintaining and repairing transceivers in an African hospital network.
There is no impediment to starting a new user-group in yahoo or elsewhere, but
my personal thinking is that it would be unwise to create special interest subsets
- we would end up with x^n mini-groups... It is great as it is!

Michael UK
19041 - 19060 of 34499