Date   

basic facts on DX-receivers

Wolfgang Hartmann
 

Hello

Ultralight Radios


There is a big step in the technique of radios generally by:

Software Defined Radio
DSP receivers

We have the advantage that by newer technique there is a lot of progress working

- Sharp shape factors in overall filtering at hf and audio

- Freqency-stability by comparison to a xtal-frequency within
software (in a programm or chip as DSP-chips)

- Working in digital mode with a lot of advantages



The new chips, SI4734, SI4735, work in DSP-mode. They are in use at Kchibo or Tecsun in China for the purpose to generate a very cheap production price. They too work in Navigation Advices. There are similiar ics too.

The main purpose till now, is the reducing of production costs. To have very little effective radios for the chinese market.

Till now, they are working perfectly under FM.

SW-working needs generally a wire some few meters long connected to the antenna.

MW und LW working with a ferrit-rod antenna connected to a long wire antenna.



There is not at the moment a DSP-receiver for DX-interested people.
Some features should be built in as SSB, LSB, USB maybee others too as specialities as DRM, DRM+, DAB.

Kchibo announced a receiver KK-S7600L with SSB-features. And we should wait for more receivers for DX-specialists.

The DX-community all over the world has a special interest in receiving even weak stations all over the world. The new factor on the market for our interests are the normal DSP-receivers, which we are able to use to a certain content.

The DX-specialist receivers are not at the market till now. We should wait for them and demand them. The classical DX-receiver producers will die because of their historical technique.

I love old tube receivers from the time before World War II. One has to ask, why those old renovated receivers are so fascinating even more than „modern" DX-receivers. The future will show, that we give a lot of classical receivers to radio-museums or collectors (a fascinating hobby)!


Wolfgang Hartmann, Nürnberg


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

lrdheat
 

I tried an E1...it's sensitivity off of the whip was similar to the G5. I was hoping for a miracle off of the whip (which I'm sure isn't possible to engineer, but hope springs eternal...) Of course, the superior sync modes and 10 Hz ssb increments allowed for superb ECSS listening. Both sidebands sounded identical on the E1. As is the case with my G3, the SONY 7600 GR sounded more natural on the upper sideband, muddier on the lower, although again, not unpleasantly so. On mw, the whip proved ok sensitivitywise, but un-nullabe. In am mode on sw, the G5 is beadier, less steady, weaker on the weaker signals than the G5. On ssb (or sync), the G3 is much closer in (perceived) sensitivity with the G5.
 
On your G3's...do you have local station mixing products when utilizing ssb or sync? I find that I can defeat this by touching the bottom of the antenna as I hold the radio, or by using the attenuation switch. The G5 and SONY 7600 GR did not suffer from this.
 
Heatwave


--- On Thu, 2/18/10, jim_kr1s wrote:

From: jim_kr1s
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 8:58 PM

 


--- In ultralightdx@ yahoogroups. com, "Powell" wrote:
>
>  You would think with all the DSP power that can be written into the chips they would have done a better job.


I guess they don't think the market is there. I'd like to try an E1. What I've read makes me think you're lucky to get a good one, though.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman. com/ 


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

Gary Kinsman
 

Hi Powell,

Actually the Sony 2010 has SSB sync (USB or LSB), but not DSB sync. I've owned one for about 24 years.

I owned several E1XM units, but never got one that worked totally right.

The best sync detector of my current radios is on my Sat 800, but it doesn't have DSB sync.

Both the E1/E1XM and Sat 800 have better sync detectors than the Sony 2010, but I doubt that these two models will still be working after more than 20 years.

Regards,
Gary

--- In ultralightdx@..., "Powell" <w4opw@...> wrote:

The Sony ICF-2010 has DSB sync, but I hear the E-1's is superior. I often get very strong selective fades on WLAC, and with the G3 it gets rather upset on these deep fades. It doesn't bother the 2010 much, but on really bad ones the upper / lower LED switches back and forth. You would think with all the DSP power that can be written into the chips they would have done a better job. Sensitivity on MW and SW need to seriously be improved. Of course I can use one of the tuneable loops on MW to perk things up, but I don't want to HAVE to unless I have to and WLAC is my strongest AM signal at night and on the G3 it's barely OK. At least WLAC and WCKY don't have their IBOC on right now.

Powell in the woods near Silverstreet, SC


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

jim_kr1s <jkearman@...>
 



--- In ultralightdx@..., "Powell" wrote:
>
>  You would think with all the DSP power that can be written into the chips they would have done a better job.


I guess they don't think the market is there. I'd like to try an E1. What I've read makes me think you're lucky to get a good one, though.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/ 


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

Powell
 

The Sony ICF-2010 has DSB sync, but I hear the E-1's is superior. I often get very strong selective fades on WLAC, and with the G3 it gets rather upset on these deep fades. It doesn't bother the 2010 much, but on really bad ones the upper / lower LED switches back and forth. You would think with all the DSP power that can be written into the chips they would have done a better job. Sensitivity on MW and SW need to seriously be improved. Of course I can use one of the tuneable loops on MW to perk things up, but I don't want to HAVE to unless I have to and WLAC is my strongest AM signal at night and on the G3 it's barely OK. At least WLAC and WCKY don't have their IBOC on right now.

Powell in the woods near Silverstreet, SC

--- In ultralightdx@..., "gkinsman1" <gkinsman@...> wrote:

Hi Richard,

I believe the post on ABDX regarding the IBOC digital sideband layout, and the resulting interference, is correct.

One other thing to keep in mind is that KNX itself is an IBOC station. It's a local for me, but using SSB sync to listen to it results in a lot of digital noise. DSB sync, like that on the Eton E1 series, solves this problem. I believe the E1 is the only portable with DSB sync. I wish Eton would have added this sync mode to the G3 as well.

Regards,
Gary


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

Gary Kinsman
 

Hi Richard,

I believe the post on ABDX regarding the IBOC digital sideband layout, and the resulting interference, is correct.

One other thing to keep in mind is that KNX itself is an IBOC station. It's a local for me, but using SSB sync to listen to it results in a lot of digital noise. DSB sync, like that on the Eton E1 series, solves this problem. I believe the E1 is the only portable with DSB sync. I wish Eton would have added this sync mode to the G3 as well.

Regards,
Gary

--- In ultralightdx@..., Richard Berler <lrdheat@...> wrote:

I had a question concerning IBOC and sync: A strong signal (at least at my QTH in Laredo, TX) from an IBOC station (KRLD Dallas 1080 KHz) creates quite a bit of hash on 1070 and 1090. When using my Grundig G3 on 1070 (KNX Los Angeles), I was expecting to have less hash on the lower sideband or lower sideband sync than on the upper sideband (or upper sideband sync. Surprisingly (to me), the signal from 1070 was cleaner on upper sideband! When I checked for reception of a station on 1090, the LOWER sideband was cleaner! Why would this be?
 
Heatwave


Re: SSB decoding in SDRs and as procedure (algorithm) in the digital software

jim_kr1s <jkearman@...>
 


--- In ultralightdx@..., Richard Berler
> The G3, by contrast, is sensitive below around 1100 KHz, and much less by the time frequencies above 1400 KHz are tuned in. The situation improves when tuning sync or ECSS style, but still remains less sensitive than the G5.

How does the G3 compare with the G5 on LW? It sure sounds as though the antenna isn't tuning well at the high end of the band. If there were too many turns on the antenna winding, LW and low-MW reception would be good, and perhaps better on the G3 than on the G5. I'd be tempted to do an internal antenna mod in that case. What the heck it's not a legal ULR anyway, might as well. :)

If the BFO is adjustable, then there is no need to align it. I can't explain why one sideband sounds different than the other, but whatever is causing that, combined with the IBOC protocol, would explain the effects you're hearing.

I had an ICF-2010 many moons ago, and never found sync detection that useful on the BCB, with so many signals. Once you get two or more carriers on one frequency, the sync detector doesn't know what to do. ECSS sometimes helps on weak signals, but what I'd really like to see on the next-gen of SiLabs chips is a heterodyne detector that would recognize a continuous tone (I guess it would have to work at audio freqs) and notch it in software. Trans-oceanic listeners would love that!

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/ 


Re: SSB decoding in SDRs and as procedure (algorithm) in the digital software

lrdheat
 

Jim...
 
The G3, like the 7600 GR, has a clarifier wheel for the BFO...continuous adjustment as opposed to incremental. It does remain stable. ECSS tuning works, and is a good backup when lower sideband sync won't hold a weak signal. Wide filter lower sideband sync sometimes holds better on a weak signal. On moderate or strong signals, lower sideband sync works well. Upper sideband locks and holds even on weak signals. Not using sync, the lower sideband is a little muddier in sound than the more natural sounding upper sideband, but not a drastic difference. As far as mw reception, the G5 is sensitive across the entire mw band. The G3, by contrast, is sensitive below around 1100 KHz, and much less by the time frequencies above 1400 KHz are tuned in. The situation improves when tuning sync or ECSS style, but still remains less sensitive than the G5. What is outstanding is ECSS or sync to hear a station sandwiched between closely packed locals. I have locals on 1340 and 1370. I can hear a 5 KW station 140 miles away (daytime) on lower sideband 1360 KHz on the G3...can't seperate this from the racket on my other sets...even the TECSUN PL-310 on 1 KHz filter can only hear the 1360 station in the null of the 1370 local, and this is not ideal as the radio in that situation is not pointing to maximize the 1360 signal.
 
Heatwave

--- On Thu, 2/18/10, jim_kr1s wrote:

From: jim_kr1s
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: SSB decoding in SDRs and as procedure (algorithm) in the digital software
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 4:38 PM

 

--- In ultralightdx@ yahoogroups. com, "Wolfgang H" wrote:
>
> Hallo Jim,
>
> as far as I understood the technique of decoding SSB, there is a relationship to AM-decoding.
>
> In AM, the software-author takes two signal parts of the total AM-signal after decoding and adds it to an AM-signal. The software seems to take mainly the LSB and the USB signal part and after this, for AM are LSB and USB added in the right phase situation, to "produce" AM.

Hi, Wolfgang,

I was assuming the G3 wasn't a DSP radio. I agree, DSP SSB demodulation would be more stable than using a separate BFO. The control chip would have to do more work, though. For SSB I think you want a tuning resolution of at least 50 Hz. I don't know how they do that on the G3. The Sony 7600GR has a continuous BFO adjustment, plus-or=minus 5 kHz, I think. But I was told it drifts, so it is probably analog. I guess you could switch in a second, "fine tuning" shaft encoder or rocker switch in SSB mode, that would reset to zero offset when you adjusted the main tuning encoder.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman. com/ 


Re: Traverse City, MI Loggings, All Times Eastern

Antonios Kekalos <akekalos@...>
 

Byron,

Thanks for the kind words. Don't have any of the ones you listed. Will probably be some time before I do as I keep hearing the same ones over and over.

Haven't even thought about trying to build my own loop yet. I'm really not technically oriented, seem to mess up everything I've ever tried to build. My interest in HAM radio is mainly cw.

I did order and am waiting on delivery, one of the Q-Stick + antennas. Sounded interesting and wasn't too much money. I'll let you know how it works when I get it.

Regards,

Tony

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 3:06 PM, wa8lcz <wa8lcz@...> wrote:

 

Hi Tony,

Congrats on 20 States Heard. wonder if have any i don't have yet ?
how about ME, NH, VT, DE, AL, SD ?????

Have you built your indoor loop antenna yet ? it will be necessary to get the hard states. i just hooked up a DSP (digital signal processing) unit to my receivers audio today. its the JPS NIR-12 and goes between the receive audio out and my external amp/speaker. I'm hearing a bunch of 1kw stations, best dx is 1 Chicago IL. also have 1 Ohio, in addition to 5 MI stations.

the WWJ iboc hash is pretty severe here, wiping out all of 940 and most of 960 kc. 940 is where i picked up MS (before iboc).

byron wa8lcz nr Detroit

--- In ultralightdx@..., Antonios Kekalos >
> 2.15.10, AM 630, CFCO, Chatham, ON, 237mi/381km, 10k/6k, //92.9, Sony
> SRF-M37V
> 2.16.10, AM 1190, WOWO, Fort Wayne, IN, 261mi/420km, 50k/9.8k, Sony SRF-M37V
> 2.16.10, AM 1500, WLQV, Detroit, MI, 213mi/343km, 50k/5k, Sony SRF-M37V
> 2.16.10, AM 1510, WLAC, Nashville, TN, 589mi/949km, 50k/50k, Sony SRF-M37V
>
>
>
> --
> Tony Kekalos
> Traverse City, MI
> SWLR-RN072
> EN74es
>




--
Tony Kekalos
Traverse City, MI
SWLR-RN072
EN74es



Re: SSB decoding in SDRs and as procedure (algorithm) in the digital software

jim_kr1s <jkearman@...>
 


--- In ultralightdx@..., "Wolfgang H" >
> Hallo Jim,
>
> as far as I understood the technique of decoding SSB, there is a relationship to AM-decoding.
>
> In AM, the software-author takes two signal parts of the total AM-signal after decoding and adds it to an AM-signal. The software seems to take mainly the LSB and the USB signal part and after this, for AM are LSB and USB added in the right phase situation, to "produce" AM.

Hi, Wolfgang,

I was assuming the G3 wasn't a DSP radio. I agree, DSP SSB demodulation would be more stable than using a separate BFO. The control chip would have to do more work, though. For SSB I think you want a tuning resolution of at least 50 Hz. I don't know how they do that on the G3. The Sony 7600GR has a continuous BFO adjustment, plus-or=minus 5 kHz, I think. But I was told it drifts, so it is probably analog. I guess you could switch in a second, "fine tuning" shaft encoder or rocker switch in SSB mode, that would reset to zero offset when you adjusted the main tuning encoder.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/ 


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

jim_kr1s <jkearman@...>
 



--- In ultralightdx@..., Richard Berler wrote:
>
> Thanks, Jim.
>   
> Is an allignment of the BFO a big job?

Richard,

I saw the reply on ABDX, and that could explain what's happening. I don't know how to align the BFO in that radio. It could be simple or not. When a signal is tuned in accurately in AM mode, something you should be able to do on any strong US station, and the radio is switched to SSB, there should either be no heterodyne, or if there is one, it should be the same pitch on either sideband. If that's the case, the BFO is aligned. The G3 reviews don't give its sync detector high marks, unfortunately. How's its performance compare with traditional ULRs you've used?

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/ 


SSB decoding in SDRs and as procedure (algorithm) in the digital software

Wolfgang Hartmann
 

Hallo Jim,

as far as I understood the technique of decoding SSB, there is a relationship to AM-decoding.

In AM, the software-author takes two signal parts of the total AM-signal after decoding and adds it to an AM-signal. The software seems to take mainly the LSB and the USB signal part and after this, for AM are LSB and USB added in the right phase situation, to "produce" AM.

For this technique, You need not generally a special hardware signal, it could be done very easily by the software.

Some softwares for SDRs have this technique. Because of that, it is only the installation in a software algorithm, to get LSB und USB.

We should wait for coming DSP-receivers. Kchibo mentioned a planned new receiver for SSB too. Have a look in the internet to the not yet produced receiver: KK-S7600L

With best regards

Wolfgang Hartmann, Nürnberg


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

lrdheat
 

Thanks, Jim.
 
Is an allignment of the BFO a big job?
 
Heatwave


--- On Thu, 2/18/10, jim_kr1s wrote:

From: jim_kr1s
Subject: [ultralightdx] Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection
To: ultralightdx@...
Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 6:47 AM

 
Synchronous and SSB-ECSS detection depend on a locally generated signal at the intermediate frequency (IF). To allow the use of a single bandpass filter at the IF, that locally generated signal (beat-frequency oscillator -- BFO) is shifted in frequency when you toggle from LSB to USB. It's possible the BFO signal in your receiver is not aligned correctly, and also possible it's drifting as the set ages. This correlates with sporadic quality problems sometimes reported with other Grundig models.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman. com/ 


Re: Traverse City, MI Loggings, All Times Eastern

wa8lcz
 

Hi Tony,

Congrats on 20 States Heard. wonder if have any i don't have yet ?
how about ME, NH, VT, DE, AL, SD ?????

Have you built your indoor loop antenna yet ? it will be necessary to get the hard states. i just hooked up a DSP (digital signal processing) unit to my receivers audio today. its the JPS NIR-12 and goes between the receive audio out and my external amp/speaker. I'm hearing a bunch of 1kw stations, best dx is 1 Chicago IL. also have 1 Ohio, in addition to 5 MI stations.

the WWJ iboc hash is pretty severe here, wiping out all of 940 and most of 960 kc. 940 is where i picked up MS (before iboc).

byron wa8lcz nr Detroit

--- In ultralightdx@..., Antonios Kekalos <akekalos@...> wrote:

2.15.10, AM 630, CFCO, Chatham, ON, 237mi/381km, 10k/6k, //92.9, Sony
SRF-M37V
2.16.10, AM 1190, WOWO, Fort Wayne, IN, 261mi/420km, 50k/9.8k, Sony SRF-M37V
2.16.10, AM 1500, WLQV, Detroit, MI, 213mi/343km, 50k/5k, Sony SRF-M37V
2.16.10, AM 1510, WLAC, Nashville, TN, 589mi/949km, 50k/50k, Sony SRF-M37V



--
Tony Kekalos
Traverse City, MI
SWLR-RN072
EN74es


Re: IBOC and ssb or sync detection

jim_kr1s <jkearman@...>
 

Synchronous and SSB-ECSS detection depend on a locally generated signal at the intermediate frequency (IF). To allow the use of a single bandpass filter at the IF, that locally generated signal (beat-frequency oscillator -- BFO) is shifted in frequency when you toggle from LSB to USB. It's possible the BFO signal in your receiver is not aligned correctly, and also possible it's drifting as the set ages. This correlates with sporadic quality problems sometimes reported with other Grundig models.

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/ 


Re: 300

Chris Knight <chris@...>
 

Congrats Jim! It was a fun contest. I'm still in the 280's (282) with the
logging tonight of XENZ-890. I've only got about 52 Colorado stations and
around 27 Mexican stations. Mexico is the easiest Latin American country to
get here in CO. These rest are a smattering of stations across 28 states.

73,

Chris

Chris Knight (N0IJK)
Fort Lupton, Colorado
http://sites.google.com/site/ftluptonulrlogs/

-----Original Message-----
From: ultralightdx@... [mailto:ultralightdx@...] On
Behalf Of jim_kr1s
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:51 AM
To: ultralightdx@...
Subject: [ultralightdx] 300



Anyone who can log 300 ULR stations in a month (for one of the Ross
Challenge awards) has to be a hero. It took two days to log 100, and 2-1/2
months to reach 300. Chris Knight and I were neck-and-neck at the 280 level,
but Chris went to bed early last night, and I was up at 5 a.m. local time
this morning. Cubans make up nearly 25% of my ULR total, so it was only
logical that one would be my #300. (Stations in Florida, where I live, total
110 in my ULR log!)

There was a nice surprise this morning. Sitting on 1360 waiting for that
Cuban to fade up, I started hearing church ads, with South Carolina phone
numbers, then mentions of Fort Jackson, which is outside Columbia, SC.
Turned out to be WELP in Easely, SC. It was 1130Z, well before sunrise
there, and they're supposed to be 35 W night. I suspect they forgot to
switch the power last night! Easely is pretty far inland, so I wasn't
getting the over-water coastal boost.

Going all out for 300 was fun, but I'm not up to battling for 400! Going to
concentrate on Latin Americans other than Cubans.

Thanks to Rob and Gary for keeping the awards program going!

73,

Jim, KR1S
http://qrp.kearman.com/


IBOC and ssb or sync detection

lrdheat
 

I had a question concerning IBOC and sync: A strong signal (at least at my QTH in Laredo, TX) from an IBOC station (KRLD Dallas 1080 KHz) creates quite a bit of hash on 1070 and 1090. When using my Grundig G3 on 1070 (KNX Los Angeles), I was expecting to have less hash on the lower sideband or lower sideband sync than on the upper sideband (or upper sideband sync. Surprisingly (to me), the signal from 1070 was cleaner on upper sideband! When I checked for reception of a station on 1090, the LOWER sideband was cleaner! Why would this be?
 
An unrelated question or 2...The G3 holds sync, even on weak signals on upper sideband. On lower sideband, the set loses sync more easily (on weak signals). In the few days that I have had the set, it seems to be getting better at holding lower sideband sync. Is this possible? Could I be burning the set in and getting better results? I do have some local stations mix into sideband and sync reception...I can defeat this by touching the antenna base, or by deploying the atenuation switch. Could local mixing products result in sync working better on the upper sideband than lower? Sync or ECSS tuning works well on the G3, and makes some weak, beady sounding stations much steadier and stronger.
 
On mw, the set is sensitive (similar to the G5) below about 1100 KHz down into the lw band. With sync or ECSS tuning, stations emerge from nothingness near the upper part of the am range, but is still less sensitive than the G5. Overall, the performance ECSSwise and sync make the G3 a satisfying set.
 
Heatwave


Congratulations to Jim Kearman-- 300 Stations Heard Award

Gary DeBock
 

Hello All,
 
The Ultralight Awards Committee (Rob Ross and me) wish to express our congratulations to Jim Kearman, who has accomplished the reception of 300 stations using Ultralight radios in the Unlimited Class.
 
Jim receives the second Award Certificate issued by our newly restored committee, in our continuing program to honor John Bryant's many contributions to the hobby, and to our Ultralight Radio group.
 
73 and Good DX,
Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA)
 
 
An extensive group of awards certificates is available from the Ultralight MW DXing Awards Committee. Each recipient receives a digital file which may be used for electronic display or is suitable for framing when printed at 8 12" x 11" on good quality paper. Information on the Awards Program and the simple application procedures are found in the Downloads>Ultralight Files>General Information area of dxer.ca and our own file area here at ultralightdx. Applications go directly to Rob Ross com>


Congratulations to Tony Kekalos-- 20 States Heard Award

Gary DeBock
 

Hello All,
 
The Ultralight Awards Committee (Rob Ross and me) wish to honor Tony Kekalos of Traverse City, Michigan, who has accomplished not only the reception of 20 U.S. States on barefoot Ultralight radios, but has also managed to receive the first official new Ultralight Award Certificate, in our continuing program to honor John Bryant's memory.
 
Rob and I feel very honored to continue this popular Ultralight incentive award program, and we hope that John's creative artwork will inspire others to apply for these unique awards, and remember John's many contributions to our ULR group history.
 
73 and Good DX, 
Gary DeBock (in Puyallup, WA, USA)      


Re: 300

Alex
 

Well it's been quite a while since I bought a WRTVH. After ex number of years, old editions are more of a hindrance than a help. But 191 stations, I thought with Radio Reloj was pretty much it, in Cuba with ole' Fidel and all.

Yes, I'm not as aggressive as I could be, for four days a week, I have to study and go to trade school at night. So Friday - Sunday night is my normal stalking time for Sun setting. I've been lucky as of late for my schools had five or six "Snow Days" that has canceled school but we'll have to make them up in July.

That or I could really poor on the coal. My best night so far has been January 23rd of this year where I logged 15 solid ID's and 2 probables. BTW, probables don't count in my overall log.

But still great going on your end. now I go to pick up a new edition of the WRTVH.

Alex N8UCN / KOH8IG / SWLR-RN037